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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Mon 20 Feb, 2012 7:50 pm 
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By reading this sentence Palandus agrees to provide his life savings to me and to continue to deposit into my account any and all monies he earns until his demise.

-> Depends. What do I get out of it? If I got something in return, and I agreed to it, then it would a legally binding contract. Contract law is wierd like that. At least Canadian Contract law is.

The laws of the land always take precedence over a EULA or any other contract

-> Depends. If that was the case then why bother having an EULA or any other contract. No, in order to have a contract (at least in Canada) you have to meet 4 criteria: Must make an Offer. Offer must be accepted. Consideration giving to those accepting, and must be legal and not intoxicated during the contract process (this is because you can say in a court of law that you were not in the right mind, and void a contract). So in the case of an EULA = Offer is you can play our game. To be accepted you must agree to the terms and conditions of the EULA. The acceptance allows you to play our game. It is not an illegal activity like selling drugs (legal being an activity the government is not against). And if you are intoxicated it simply means that you lose access to the game. Simpler than suing you.


f) seems to be something like Diablo 3 coming up or any game that uses Origin.

g) GOG.com sent out a newsletter saying that they were trying to get newer titles in their stock. May see some 2011 games there soon.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Mon 20 Feb, 2012 7:53 pm 
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Also it depends on International Contract Law. If the game was made in USA and you are playing it in say Britain, then you would assume that the EULA would be covered by International Contract Law as it is an IMPORT, rather than a product that is made in Britain. If it was made in Britain, it would be covered by British Contract Law.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Mon 20 Feb, 2012 9:59 pm 
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Gyro

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Quote:
If that was the case then why bother having an EULA or any other contract.

Because, and I mean no offense by this, they then dupe people into thinking they don't have any rights.
You'll notice that all EULA's also include a clause that basically says "if any part of the EULA is found not-legally binding, the rest of the EULA will still stand".

I've seen EULA's stating that the company won't be responsible for any deaths caused by the product. Great! Except that if there is a death, it will be the courts that decide if the company was negligent/complicit etc.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Mon 20 Feb, 2012 10:30 pm 
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Dart
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I think saying you shouldn't have any DRM is like saying you shouldn't lock your car door so that your friends can get in slightly more easily. You'd let your friends into your car anyway but if the door's locked it won't instantly get stolen. Most games have an activation key of sorts to stop one person legitimately buying it and then giving it to all their friends on a data stick. Sometimes, as in the cases of GSB, you could probably play the initial release single player without said code; activation is required for updates and online elements. I personally don't find it too much hassle typing a code each time I install a game; people here have spent far more time and keystrokes complaining about it that would ever have been used typing activation codes.

Another purpose of activation codes is to identify that copy as yours: if information like stats or items is kept on a server - see Team Fortress 2, it can be accessed from any computer if you log in as "you". All these data could be kept on your computer but if get a new machine or have to format your hard drive, as I did not long ago, you would lose all your stuff. SPAZ saves to the Steam Cloud so you can keep your saves between machines, provided you paid for it.

Do you really have nothing better to do with your time than sit playing games during the rare, contrived scenarios when you can't activate them? Actually there's a handy little invention for these situations, it's called a "book", it doesn't have any DRM at all and you can even get them free from a magical place called a "library". The other thing you can do is excersise some bloody patience and not act like a spoiled little brat.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb, 2012 12:45 am 
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I've seen EULA's stating that the company won't be responsible for any deaths caused by the product. Great! Except that if there is a death, it will be the courts that decide if the company was negligent/complicit etc.

If a game can cause you to die physically, you proly shouldn't play it... ie a bright colorful game like Geometry Wars 2 for someone who suffers from severe seizures.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb, 2012 12:19 pm 
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Gyro

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Quote:
The other thing you can do is excersise some bloody patience and not act like a spoiled little brat.

So standing up for my rights is to "act like a spoiled brat"? If I don't stand up for them who will? I like my RIGHT to be able to do what I want with stuff I buy. I stand up for my principles; what's the point of having them if you're just going to cave in every time someone does something against them?


Incidentally, I've lost WEEKS of my time to DRM on legitimately owned software (not just game software, but enterprise software at work).

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All these data could be kept on your computer but if get a new machine or have to format your hard drive, as I did not long ago, you would lose all your stuff.

Usually I wouldn't say this, but given you're being so bellicose - you're doing it wrong. I can format my computer as much as I like without losing data. You put data in the cloud you don't own it any more. The people who put stuff in MegaUpload can attest to that.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb, 2012 3:47 pm 
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I agree with you asdf to fight for your rights... but at the same time who said you have rights? Currently its the government. Maybe in the future it will be the corporations. Look at SOPA; that was pressured by major corporations to do it. I doubt the common person really cared one way or another about it. Though, some of those corporations are damn inefficient with resources, and release horrendous quality crap, that it is no wonder their stuff gets pirated. Who wants to dish out 70 dollars for a game with 4 hours of gameplay (buggy, and graphical glithces everywhere) and broken multiplayer? I sure don't. Am I advocating piracy? No, but I sure wish they'd get their shit together and release quality products.... Maybe if people sued EA and Activision for releasing a half-assed game might do the trick better than pirating it.

Ideas?


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb, 2012 9:10 pm 
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Gyro

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Quote:
Maybe if people sued EA and Activision for releasing a half-assed game might do the trick better than pirating it.

Well, here in the UK you could make a good case for returning a product as "not fit for purpose" under our statutory rights. I wonder if anyone has done that yet and managed to make it stick. I'd certainly be up for trying it if I was ever stupid enough to buy $70 games. But I'm not, I buy cheap and cheerful indie games, ideally only after demo-ing them first.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb, 2012 10:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon 20 Jun, 2011 11:31 am
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asdf wrote:
a) "so I do actually believe you on this point) so could you as the gifter auntheticate the game before hand and then deliver the product to them?"
It depends on the nature of the DRM. Typically its activated only on the PC you perform the activation on. Based on Blorfy's comment I would surmise this is the case with SPAZ too.

b) Per (a) - not everyone has the internet. Yes it'll come back, but I don't want to be beholden to the whims of the internet.

c) Servers also go down for technical reasons.

d) That's hardly a counter. :-) They've taken your money and only given you a partial service.

e) By reading this sentence Palandus agrees to provide his life savings to me and to continue to deposit into my account any and all monies he earns until his demise.
Obviously that's not legal and no country would uphold that if I took you to court for failing to do it. Similarly EULA's are only legally binding if they don't breach the countries own laws (and even then, they're not necessarily). The laws of the land always take precedence over a EULA or any other contract. I strongly advise you investigate this area further before making further assertions. Hint: different courts in different countries (or even within different areas of different countries) have come up with differing judgements on the enforceability of EULAs. See - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_l ... ted_States - and that's just one country!

f) Privacy - By requiring online activation the activator can track when/where/how often you activate their game. Less of an issue than always-on activation but still.

g) The thing about GOG is - all of the games they're selling are old. I expect them to be cheaper because the games are unsupported by the time they get there. Any money companies make from sales on there is just a bonus. And they can only put games on there that the copyright holder allows them to.


I'm sorry if I come off as an ass.. but deal with it.

A) You want to gift a game that is ONLY sold online to a friend without internet? is SPAZ really THAT important to your buddy? It doesn't have multiplayer so if your buddy really wants to play he could you know, play at your house..

B) So.. you don't want to "be beholden to the whims of the internet." yet you use it? what about the whims of nature? the whims of other people? the whims of the computer your on? the whims of the entire world.

C) Technical reasons are usually fixed pretty fast. but I guess you don't want to "be beholden to the whims" of their server either...

D) It's how today's world works.. Seriously.. For having such an insight into laws as you seemingly do (although Wikipedia IS NOT A reliable source) you don't know that buying a game is actually only buying the rights to play it? take an MMO that costs monthly. the account you pay for isn't yours. Your simply paying for access to it. Same deal with fully offline titles. End of story. There's no but really.. Courts hardly rule consistently in cases of EULA's or TOA's so you can't use that as fact.

E) your statement isnt legally binding because palandus hasn't signed it. and you cannot enforce a contract that is agreed upon by reading a sentence. You are obligated to know what the hell your signing before you sign it, its your choice to read the fine print or not.

You can't legally bind somebody to anything just by having them read a sentence as you cannot possibly know what your agreeing to Without reading the sentence.

F) Your on a public forum, on the internet, and you care about Privacy? Really?

You realize that your ISP keeps records of amount of bandwidth that you use up? some even keep track of what websites you visit, how often and how long.
Your mobile phone can be used to keep track of your movement worldwide.
Your credit card or bank card can also do that to a lesser extent.
Depending on what country you live in, the government has a very detailed history of your income as well as how much taxes you pay.

And your arguing on this forum about your right to privacy? Dude.. if your that worried.. build a cottage Way up in the mountains of some god forsaken country nobody can pronounce the name of and have all the privacy you can bare..
Oh wait.. Said government probably has records of the cottage..

G) basically your asking the world to revolve around you? You don't want to "be beholden to anybody elses whims" but you want the world to be beholden to yours?

Again, Wikipedia IS NOT A REALIABLE source.

And again Sorry, but dude, Grow up and face facts about the world you live in.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Wed 22 Feb, 2012 3:10 am 
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Posts: 45
A) Gifting games is entirely possible. Valve is actually working on trying to figure out a way to do this. It's only a matter of time.

B)Currently, 76% of the US has internet access. Of that 75%, only about 36% have broadband
C)Legitimate concern, this really depends on the kind of game it is.
D)
E) Ok...going to quote a good friend of mine who knows her stuff about this kind of thing. Tl;DR EULA's sure as heck do matter and apply.

"What is an EULA? EULA, of course, stands for End User License Agreement and it defines the relationship between the software provider and the end user. Usually, the EULA carefully restricts the way a user can use software (such as prohibiting the redistribution of the software or reverse-engineering it) and at other times it defines the rights conferred by use (through a General Public License).

An EULA becomes a legally-binding contract if at some point in its presentation it states specifically that by clicking an accept button the user agrees to everything contained within the provisions of the EULA, and like any other voluntarily-signed agreement, its terms (as merited by the generally accepted principles of contract law) will be enforced by the courts.

Arguments akin to "I didn't sign anything at the time of purchase and therefore the (American) Uniform Commericial Code (UCC) applies" have failed time and time again across the United States. However, in the past, the enforceability of an EULA has depended on several factors, one of them being the court in which the case is heard (and, more often than not, judgements were overturned on appeal, usually in favor of the software company). Another tried-and-true defense suggested that because EULA was attached to the outside of software within a shrinkwrapped package, and usually discarded without being read, no voluntary consent to terms was given.

In response, some courts have determined that the validity of the shrinkwrapped license agreements are invalid, characterizing them as contracts of adhesion, unconscionable, and/or unacceptable pursuant to the UCC. Other courts - particularly those in Delaware - have determined that the shrinkwrapped license agreements are valid and enforceable (and most memorably, this is what was decided in the Microsoft versus Harmony Computers, Stanley Furst case). While no court has ruled on the general validity of shrinkwrapped EULAs (in that decisions have been limited to particular provisions and terms), the courts have demonstrated EULAs (even those of the shrinkwrapped variety) tend to be valid even if specific parts are not enforceable.

In other words, assuming you are permitted to return the product for a refund if you reject the agreement (a big assumption sometimes), you will be bound by all valid terms and stipulations, even if you've not read them or signed for anything. That said, the enforcement of your rights (as a consumer) isn't without a real cost, though, and courts are unlikely to be sympathetic to the "I didn't want to drive back to the store" defense... and neither is your lawyer. As for a minor's standing in terms of EULAs, that'll be another interesting discussion that eventually will be addressed, I suspect. For the keeners, here's an excellent article on these topics: http://www.frictionlessinsight.com/arch ... ad-th.html

I'll point out the 7th Circuit and 8th Circuits solidly subscribe to the "licensed and not sold" argument, while most other circuits (including Delaware's 3rd Circuit) appear to support this position. Consequently, publishers have generally moved away from the use of shrinkwrapped EULAs and made use of some form of software encryption that makes it difficult for a user to install the software without either first agreeing to the license agreement (or they'll be found in violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) and similar foreign legislation).EULAs are contracts; they will be enforced"
F) Just because there are numerous ways companies and websites can track you doesn't necessarily make it right. Congress is actually looking into this, as well as more than a few privacy advocates and foundations. The US government itself is on extremely shakey ground in regards to privacy and internet communication (See:Bills like SOPA, PIPA, OPEN and ProtectIP, but then this is old hat-just google ECHELON).

G)I don't quite get what your comment has to do with their original comment, because they're not saying that in the least. Might want to relax, you're rambling.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Wed 22 Feb, 2012 3:56 am 
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Don't forget EAs Origin! Pesky thing collects 100% of any information you put on the internet or your computer; Document files excluded.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Wed 22 Feb, 2012 10:31 pm 
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Gyro

Joined: Mon 13 Feb, 2012 10:25 pm
Posts: 136
Plasmatic wrote:
Your mobile phone can be used to keep track of your movement worldwide.
Your credit card or bank card can also do that to a lesser extent.

Which is why I don't typically carry a mobile and always buy stuff with cash. Believe me, I know all too well what information everyone has on me.

Quote:
And again Sorry, but dude, Grow up and face facts about the world you live in.

But you can say that about everything you disagree with: "Hey gay dude, accept that you can't marry and deal with it"; "Hey slave, accept that you're a slave and deal with it"; "Hey woman, accept you have no rights and deal with it". Yes those are all much bigger issues than this, but that doesn't mean this is still an issue even if its not important to you.

Quote:
Again, Wikipedia IS NOT A REALIABLE source.

No, but the sources it cites usually are. Wikipedia is perfect for this, or would you rather I only link to peer-reviewed primary sources? Oh wait, Wikipedia provided some!

Quote:
your statement isnt legally binding because palandus hasn't signed it. and you cannot enforce a contract that is agreed upon by reading a sentence.

Yes yesy, but you miss the point. I know its not legally binding, but even if it was stuck in a EULA it still wouldn't be. That's my point. EULA's do not supersede the rights granted by the laws of the land, and the laws of the land say that people can't sell themselves into slavery (which is basically what that line is).

Quote:
Technical reasons are usually fixed pretty fast. but I guess you don't want to "be beholden to the whims" of their server either...

Define "pretty fast". Five days? http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Cloud-Computin ... ge-236462/ - and that's AMAZON.

Quote:
B) So.. you don't want to "be beholden to the whims of the internet." yet you use it? what about the whims of nature? the whims of other people? the whims of the computer your on? the whims of the entire world.

Exactly. Why should I be when I don't need to be? Its an arbitrary limitation. I'm not beholden to nature either - I wear warm clothes when its cold out, and waterproofs when its wet. Are you living on the equator in a hut? Please don't tell me you have Air Conditioning, after all you don't mind being beholden to nature. If you think about it you'll realise that a large chunk of modern society is designed such that people can do things /their way/.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Thu 23 Feb, 2012 12:23 am 
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laws of the land say that people can't sell themselves into slavery

Really, because I got that impression from people who work for major corporations or the government feel like they've sold themselves into slavery.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Thu 23 Feb, 2012 2:54 pm 
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If you've ever been on jobseeker's allowance you've basically sold your self into slavery - for hardly anything as well.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Thu 23 Feb, 2012 6:31 pm 
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Or welfare. Or if it is a recession... oh wait there is a recession going on.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2012 2:47 am 
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Blorfy wrote:
If you are "really" curious about how SPAZ development went. Then here's the story. It is a long read but tells the whole gruesome story.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2411076

Mother of god, that is a horrifying story...

Still, kudos to you two for staying with your dreams despite all the bullshit that happened. May you inspire indie devs everywhere.

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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2012 5:42 am 
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Developer
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In the end it worked out, but it was a hell of a scary ride.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2012 6:00 am 
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My congratulations go to you. Just you wait, I'll buy myself a second copy just out of respect.

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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2012 6:48 am 
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Developer
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:) Better yet to give one to a friend and spread the word. Thanks very much for the support.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 3:01 pm 
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Dart

Joined: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 2:59 pm
Posts: 22
Blorfy wrote:
Wow, pretty hot topic. Anyhow, the idea has always been to patch out the online activation requirement for the stand alone version. We will most likely do this on or before May9th. The 1 year anniversary of the game's launch.

...

In the end, the DRM free version will exist in the near future so everybody wins. We had some short term protection and peace of mind, and others get a future proof version of SPAZ.


Yay, thanks! I'll mark that on my calendar. :P

EDIT: p.s. I'm the guy who emailed a couple of months ago asking about the DRM. This is an instabuy come the 9th of May.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 4:25 pm 
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Dart

Joined: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 11
P51mus wrote:
asdf wrote:
b) "Internet's" go down.

Which is why steam has an offline mode.


The Steam offline mode is known to be flaky, ie. sometimes it simply decides it will not allow you play your Steam games offline, but insists you to connect to Steam servers first for whatever reason. It has happened to me too, even when I had set the offline mode enabled beforehand. Personally, I think it is intentional, ie. so that you can't play Steam games offline "forever".

Anyway, even if the offline mode worked 100%, it still wouldn't work for cases if you need to reinstall the Steam game from a local backup, e.g. if you need to reinstall Windows, or buy a new PC, or simply uninstalled the game before and later want to re-install it (without the ability to re-download it from Steam servers, for example because the Steam servers don't exist anymore).

Some of you seem to believe Steam will be around forever. I claim Windows Store, which comes with Windows 8, will eventually (over several years, maybe not even during Win8 lifetime, but Win9 etc.) shrink it to oblivion, same with pretty much all other 3rd party digital content providers.

Microsoft is already making it so that Metro apps and games can be only obtained from Windows Store, not anywhere else, even Steam. It is not far-fetched to think they might sometime extend this policy to non-Metro apps and games as well. Ie., you can get software for your Win9 machine only through Windows Store, just like you can get IOS games only through Apple's store (unless you jailbreak your machine).

And even if they didn't enforce this policy beyond Metro games, it will still shrink Steam's lebensraum, unless MS really screws up Windows Store.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 4:34 pm 
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Dart

Joined: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 11
Plasmatic wrote:
g) The thing about GOG is - all of the games they're selling are old.


Untrue. They are now starting selling newer and newer games, unless you consider games like Cryostasis (2009), Witcher 2 etc. "old" and "unsupported".

Plasmatic wrote:
B) So.. you don't want to "be beholden to the whims of the internet." yet you use it? what about the whims of nature? the whims of other people? the whims of the computer your on? the whims of the entire world.


Silly argument. Just because there are other risks in the world does not mean I want even more risks on top of it, e.g. in the form of requiring online authentication server for all the games I've ever purchased.

Yes, it is true I can be hit by a bus tomorrow or die of cancer 10 years from now. But that is not a valid reason not to use safety belt when I drive later today.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 4:41 pm 
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Dart

Joined: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 11
Blorfy wrote:
Wow, pretty hot topic. Anyhow, the idea has always been to patch out the online activation requirement for the stand alone version. We will most likely do this on or before May9th. The 1 year anniversary of the game's launch.
...
In the end, the DRM free version will exist in the near future so everybody wins. We had some short term protection and peace of mind, and others get a future proof version of SPAZ.


That sounds like a very good approach, ie. securing early sales and selling the game to those who don't mind or even love DRM, and later take it away and get even more sales from people who dislike DRM. May I suggest that you sell your game also in e.g. GOG? I think you'd have tons of new customers from there.

Anyway, if and when you remove DRM, you can count me as a new customer. I was interested in your game already earlier, but decided to pass it at least for now even for light DRM. If you take even that out, then I don't need to ponder over it anymore at all.

As someone else said: if I (or anyone else for that matter) wanted your game free, I would have gotten it free from some pirate site. But I do have some morals left, I pay for what I play, hence I haven't pirated it.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 5:01 pm 
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Hatchet

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Deleted post, since it was off-topic. It was a response to another post that digressed from the thread topic, and only digressed further.


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 Post subject: Re: DRM
PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 8:06 pm 
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Dart
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First off, I want to say thanks to ASDF for not just leaving this. You seem to be the only one on 'your' side of the story.

Second off, I've been on most sides of the fence. Making and distributing software as a dev, from an IT security point of view, as a pirate and as a legitimate customer. But here is the thing;

People DO steal.
You cannot stop ALL of those people.
You need to support your LEGITIMATE customers.

In the position of MinMax, they need to make a balance where they make it hard enough for people to steal so that not everyone copies it and passes it around. They need to make it not so hard that it will impact the majority of their playerbase.

Online verification of a user account or serial is a great way to do that, especially for a game that does not exist in a physical form. Other than not having any protection whatsoever, it impacts the smallest group of people; those customers that can only download the game at a separate location and then install it on their home computer (that is not on the internet).

If anyone on this forum has a better way of protecting a videogame from being copied like it's the black plague, please feel free to say so. Personally, I can't come up with a better scenario that produces the least amount of victims inside the playerbase itself.


P.S.: EULA's are indeed legally binding, but any contract you agree to is always superceded by law. Just because I make a document that says I am legally allowed to kill my neighbor and then have it notarized and signed by him, me and two witnesses, does not make it a legal document. However, the ability to resell a game is not a right. It's a privilege, and in taht aspect the comapny MinMax does not remove any of your basic rights.

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