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 Post subject: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Fri 23 Mar, 2012 8:40 pm 
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Gyro
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Which is a better use of a turret as a booster slot.

Fixed turret mod or double/triple mounts? (Man I wish these buffs had numbers.)

Experimental Data Edit:
Level 8 Shields and quick charge shield.

A Tug equipped with a fixed turret mod and shield booster had a little more shields (206) than a Tug equipped with a double mount turret equipped with shield booster (200).

The Brute equipped on its huge turret mount with one shield booster has 435 shields, while a double mount produces 469, and a triple mount gives 534 shields.

Presumably had a fixed mod been an option on the brute's huge turret the shield value would have been somewhere around 480.

So triple when possible, all else fixed mods?

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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Fri 23 Mar, 2012 8:59 pm 
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Shortbus
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Personally for putting boosters on turrets. I would take the smaller ones and use a fixed turret. Having boosters on a triple seems kind of a waste in my opinion. But that's just what I'd recommend.

Of course if your ship has a ton of utility slots those are your first choice for boosters.


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Fri 23 Mar, 2012 11:26 pm 
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Ranger
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Location: Weert, the Netherlands.
Keep in mind that the bigger the booster is, the better it works.
So in this case, putting a booster in a fixed turret mount is the most beneficial.
As for bounty hunter vessels, they got eneugh Utility slots to stop u from using weapons slots for them. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Fri 23 Mar, 2012 11:49 pm 
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Shortbus
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Weertangel wrote:
As for bounty hunter vessels, they got eneugh Utility slots to stop u from using weapons slots for them. :)


*coughs* Manta Ray *coughs* That thing has 5 utility mounts :D


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Sat 24 Mar, 2012 12:33 am 
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Turtle head
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You can find the actual math for boosters on the SPAZ wiki under formulas. I haven't done the math myself, but I'm sure you could if you so wished. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Sat 24 Mar, 2012 1:25 am 
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Dart
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Posts: 22
Fun and games with math time. I quickly did some algebra and this is what I got for the choice between Fixed Turret and Double Turret. From the wiki we have:
Quote:
Booster Formula

Each booster has a base bonus - e.g. +10% bonus to pizza production and +15% bonus to pasta twirling. A number of factors then multiply the booster's bonus(es) on a percentage scale. The complete formula for the bonus applied by a given booster is:

N * (1.5^(B - S)) * (0.9^D) * O

Where:

* N=the base booster bonus
* B=the size of the booster, with 4 being Huge and 1 being Small
* S=the size of the affected module or ship, same scale as B
* D=the number of duplicate boosters - that is, boosters of the same type whose bonus has already been applied prior to the booster being considered
* O=Booster Overdrive bonus (research or specialists)


So let x be the size of the turret in question.

Fixed Turret
B=x+1 since we upgrade the size of the turret for the loss of movement.
Hence the bonus is: N * (1.5^(x+1 - S)) * (0.9^D) * O

Double Turret
B=x-1
Hence the bonus is:
N * (1.5^(x-1 - S)) * (0.9^D) * O+N * (1.5^(x-1 - S)) * (0.9^(D+1)) * O
=N*(1.5^(x-1-S)*(0.9^D)*O*(1+0.9) by distribution property (i.e. factoring)

Now to compare
I use =? to denote the unknown inequality. Also note that N and O are always positive, hence when we multiple across the unknown inequality, we do not have to flip it.

Fixed Double
N * (1.5^(x+1 - S)) * (0.9^D) * O =? N*(1.5^(x-1-S)*(0.9^D)*O*(1.9)
And then we start canceling...
| Click to toggle: +
(1.5^(x+1 - S)) * (0.9^D) * O =? (1.5^(x-1-S)*(0.9^D)*O*(1.9)
(1.5^(x+1 - S)) * (0.9^D) =? (1.5^(x-1-S)*(0.9^D)*(1.9)
(1.5^(x+1 - S)) =? (1.5^(x-1-S)*(1.9)
(1.5^(x+1)) =? (1.5^(x-1)*(1.9)
(1.5^(1)) =? (1.5^(-1)*(1.9)

1.5 =? 1.9/1.5
1.5 =? 1.26666667
1.5 > 1.26666667

So a fixed turret will result in a larger bonus than the double turret.

I'll post back about the triple turret in a minute. This is not what I had expected when I started. If there are any algebra errors, or asumption errors please point them out!


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Sat 24 Mar, 2012 2:00 am 
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Gopher

Joined: Fri 17 Feb, 2012 6:44 am
Posts: 84
Note that Fixed Turret Mod can't be used on a Huge Mount, while Triple Mount Turret can ONLY be used on a Huge Mount. So you'd have to compare between an ordinary Huge Mount and a Triple Mount Turret. If you ignore the duplicate booster penalties the Triple Mount wins out (1.0 < 1.5), but with duplicate penalties it'd only be a very small advantage, and if you had more boosters of the same type it'd probably end up being a loss.

But feel free to try the math. :3


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Sat 24 Mar, 2012 2:25 am 
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Dart
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I think I'm going to just create a wiki page with some of my findings because I'm kind of interested in what is the mathematically optimum solution to various configurations. I hope to have it done by the end of the night, if not tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Sat 24 Mar, 2012 10:43 am 
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Hound
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Math time! Believe me, it'd be interesting to find out.

Though i probably won't be sticking Boosters in my Large and Huge Turrets. No way.

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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Sat 24 Mar, 2012 10:52 am 
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Gyro
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Posts: 102
EvilNinja wrote:
Though i probably won't be sticking Boosters in my Large and Huge Turrets. No way.


There are many situations where this is called for. My mammoth has every slot full of boosters except for the huge turret, same with my brute, this gives them absurd range with the particle cannon, turn on auto turrets and they snipe smaller craft off screen.

Also for cloaked missions, like supply run, I have a mammoth with nothing but engine boosters (3 in the triple turret mount, fixed turret mods for the larges and below) and no armor. It zips around PDQ :) Also it's good for crew booster mods on a grunt shuttle carrier build.

Whenever I use a helix as a sniper I fill up everything but the bomb slot with boosters.

Right tool for the job :)

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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 12:12 pm 
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Dart

Joined: Fri 23 Mar, 2012 2:46 am
Posts: 13
I have a bit of query for boosters, possibly related to this thread. As mentioned earlier, on the wiki it says :
Quote:
Booster Formula

Each booster has a base bonus - e.g. +10% bonus to pizza production and +15% bonus to pasta twirling. A number of factors then multiply the booster's bonus(es) on a percentage scale. The complete formula for the bonus applied by a given booster is:

N * (1.5^(B - S)) * (0.9^D) * O

Where:

* N=the base booster bonus
* B=the size of the booster, with 4 being Huge and 1 being Small
* S=the size of the affected module or ship, same scale as B
* D=the number of duplicate boosters - that is, boosters of the same type whose bonus has already been applied prior to the booster being considered
* O=Booster Overdrive bonus (research or specialists)


This brings up my question: The booster size-dependent bonus / reduction, is that related to the size of the booster mount compared to the Ship, or to the weapon being boosted? I've been looking through the wiki and forums, and have found conflicting views.

For example, on my Huge Hammerhead, I have some Large Fusion Beams in the triple-split turrets. If a put a beam booster in the Huge utility slot, does it give a 'same size = 100%' modifier because the Huge Booster = the Huge ship, or does it give a 'greater size = 150%' modifier because the Huge booster is bigger than the Large Beam slots being used?

This could be especially relevant for ships who have turret/weapon slots of differing sizes from their ship size; like the Grinder having a Huge weapon slot, but being a Large ship. What size booster do you need to count as 'the same size'? Would you need to Fixed-Mount its turret to put a Huge booster to get the 100% modifier? Etc.

Hopefully my question makes sense :P The trouble is I can't just test it myself on shields, since shields always go based on the whole ship size, not any particular weapon slot on the ship.


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 1:09 pm 
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Turtle head
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Joined: Tue 09 Aug, 2011 5:35 am
Posts: 414
Size in relation to the weapon being boosted. That's why it says "affected module or ship" instead of just "affected ship." Should probably edit it to be clearer. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 1:44 pm 
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Dart

Joined: Fri 23 Mar, 2012 2:46 am
Posts: 13
Kloreep wrote:
Size in relation to the weapon being boosted. That's why it says "affected module or ship" instead of just "affected ship." Should probably edit it to be clearer. :)


Ah, ok thanks. No, the wiki seems pretty clear, it was only because I kept reading things from other sources mentioning ship size being the factor for weapons that I got confused.

I guess this would make things like the super handy Comparitive Ship DPS Spreadsheet a bit more complicated since I would need to factor in the bonus for each module in relation to each weapon separately. E.G. With 1 Large Booster, the Huge beam, Large beam, and Medium beam actually each get a different bonus on my Hammerhead. As I understand from the spreadsheet tooltips however, the current formula on that page assumes the boost is only related between ship size and booster size, so it does the same bonus for all of the beams.


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 4:41 pm 
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Hatchet

Joined: Sun 04 Mar, 2012 9:22 pm
Posts: 183
The size of the affected module or ship.

If it affects the ship (shields, engine) then ship size. If it affects a module,(laser, cannon, missile) then the module size.

If the ship (separating it from modules for a moment) is not affected by the booster, you can't very well use the affected ship size.


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Tue 27 Mar, 2012 7:59 pm 
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Boomerang
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Joined: Sun 02 Oct, 2011 12:00 am
Posts: 252
Location: England
All boosters are size dependent of the ship, not on what they are boosting - I found this out while making the spreadsheet. I'll quote the appropriate comments that the devs gave here; you can look in my thread, Comparitive Ship DPS Spreadsheet for Cannon Builds, if you wish to see the full comments.

Blorfy wrote:
(snippet)...If a booster is 1 size smaller than the size of a ship, so a medium booster in a large ship, it will only be half effective. A small booster in a huge ship will be only 1/8th effective.


Blorfy wrote:
(snippet)...All boosters work according to the same rules as listed above...


The spreadsheet should allow you to work out what gives a bigger boost; tripple or fixed. That said, are there any turret sizes that can have both? Otherwise you just use something like the spreadsheet to work out what should be weapons and what should be boosters (if optimal dps is your goal).

P.S. The spreadsheet is for cannon builds because the boosters are using cannon stats - I've thought about doing one for beams but never got around to it (and I would need to find out what beam boosters exactly do).


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Tue 27 Mar, 2012 9:16 pm 
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Dart

Joined: Fri 23 Mar, 2012 2:46 am
Posts: 13
Ah, great, thanks! Thanks for relating the info from the devs to settle this. :) Perhaps then the wiki should be updated to clear up the confusion, since currently it seems to imply it depends on the size of the weapon.

Also, thanks for all the work on the spreadsheet, it has been really useful in playing around with different layouts even when I use no boosters; just trying out splitting different turrets or Fixing other turrets in combination with normal shooter slots etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2012 11:30 pm 
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Hatchet

Joined: Sun 04 Mar, 2012 9:22 pm
Posts: 183
Interesting . . . would be nice if there were a way to conclusively test DPS to ensure that the second comment wasn't carelessly all-inclusive, where it contradicts the wiki.


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Thu 29 Mar, 2012 2:38 pm 
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Boomerang
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Well, the second comment was a direct answer to me asking if this included weapon boosters so... heh.


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Thu 29 Mar, 2012 9:57 pm 
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Hatchet

Joined: Sun 04 Mar, 2012 9:22 pm
Posts: 183
The first comment could be accurate and carefully considered, while the second comment could have been strictly true, without enumerating if the size penalties always refer to the size of the ship instead of sometimes to the module affected.

I'm just hesitant to accept one quote's implications as fact, ("Yup, uh-huh, just like that, bye.") when they contradict the most complete and detailed explanation of the mechanics that I'm aware of.

It also . . . . . doesn't make a great deal of commonsense-sense to me to do it that way. A medium booster on a huge gun should not be relieved of any penalty just because it's on a medium ship. I will be the first to admit, though, that sometimes you sacrifice lore or commonsense performance to serve gameplay instead.

When I get home, I'll try equal layouts (Medium gun/medium booster) on a huge ship and a medium ship to see if there's a difference. Maybe. If I don't feel too lazy. I may open the game, and just decide to play it instead. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 4:02 am 
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Shortbus

Joined: Sat 04 Jun, 2011 10:33 pm
Posts: 8
*sigh* this is all too complicated. Why can't it be simpler, like a bigger booster will yield you more and that's it...
Now where's my big red button...

:Mass Retreat:


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 9:27 am 
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Boomerang
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Joined: Sun 02 Oct, 2011 12:00 am
Posts: 252
Location: England
Well, we could just plain out ask and see what the devs say:

For Blorfy/Richard: Do weapon boosters depend on the size of the ship or the size of the weapon when concerning their effectiveness?

Thanks!

Now hoping it is not the latter or I am going to have some major reworking of the spreadsheet to do!


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 4:15 pm 
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Hound
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Ship size, no, but a small booster won't do a heck of a lot to a huge cannon. You get a diminished return there. Blorfy could tell you more about exactly what is going on under the hood.


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 4:21 pm 
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Ranger
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We need numbers in the ship design screen :D


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 4:49 pm 
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Hatchet

Joined: Sun 04 Mar, 2012 9:22 pm
Posts: 183
Small boosters on a huge ship do indeed suffer a heavy penalty. (One small gun, two small boosters.) Tested this with a Freighter and a Mule, both of which have small guns, and at least two small utility slots, and two utility slots matching the ship size. The gopher FAR outstripped the freighter's fire rate.

The equation implies that when booster and the size of one other factor (either the ship or module size) match, the same guns should fire at the same rate. However, while switching the small boosters to huge on the freighter helped, it certainly didn't match the gopher's RoF.

Bottom line: On different size ships with the same gun of the same size, neither matching the booster to the module size, nor matching the booster to the ship size, can produce identical results between the two ships.

Somewhere, that equation is off.


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 Post subject: Re: Booster turret question.
PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 6:22 pm 
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Boomerang
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Posts: 252
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Hmm, thats interesting indeed.

Lurkily, if I'm interpreting your results correctly, your tests suggest that the ship size difference definately had a strong affect on the booster's efficiency. The difference between the gopher and the freighter when booster size matched ship size may be a ship-to-ship difference.

Something that I should point out is that being a size up (up to one size larger) should make the booster more efficient; assumably this is true whether the size is based on the module or the ship. This could be messing around with the test somewhat because going from a small booster to a medium booster would still increase rate of fire with a small gun. Try the test again but with a medium ship and a medium booster with a small gun VS. a huge ship and a medium booster with a small gun. If the huge vessel still gets a boost in rate of fire when it then goes from a medium to a huge booster then ship size is definately affecting the booster's efficiency.

Incidentally, the way to test the weapon size affecting boosters would be something like this:

1. Test how fast say a medium gun on the freighter shoots (no boosters or specialists or anything), then add a medium booster and test again. Work out the boost as a percentage that was given to the rate of fire.
2. Do the same test but with a huge gun, again using a medium booster. The boost as a percentage should be the same (within a margin of error) if weapon size-to-booster is not the case (because nothing else has changed), but if weapon size does affect the booster effectiveness then the boost percentage should be a fair bit smaller.

Hopefully Blorfy can clear it up either way by telling us the underlying mechanics!


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